Quote Dev Singh:
Understanding and Insight
A few years before his death, prompted by his biographer Mary Lutyens, Krishnamurti wrote a summary of his entire message. In this piece, entitled "The Core of the Teaching", Krishnamurti writes:When man becomes aware of the movement of his own thoughts he will see the division between the thinker and thought, the observer and the observed, the experience and the experiencer. He will discover that this division is an illusion. Then only is there pure observation which is insight without any shadow of the past or of time.
Krishnamurti here seems to suggest that the human mind is not limited to the familiar state of consciousness characterized by a clear separation between a subject (the experiencer) and an object (the experience). In addition to this everyday way of experiencing, Krishnamurti claims that the human mind also has the capacity for perceiving reality "purely", that is to say in a direct, non-personal manner, one that is not processed through an egocentric consciousness.
Although it's possible to imagine what such a state of non-duality might resemble, these musings rarely go beyond the realm of the intellect. For us, the separation between the observer and the observed lies at the heart of our actual experience, unquestioned and unquestionable. In fact, the sense of separation is so real that we find ourselves in a state of constant tension with our environment. We view the environment as an external agency, one that has the power to shape and influence who we are. Despite our strong intuitive feeling to the contrary, Krishnamurti nonetheless keeps on insisting that the individual and its environment are in fact one and the same thing.
--End of quote.
This is the beginning part of the article. Dev Singh has arranged this article, where he begins with a Krishnmurti quote and states his understanding on them.
It is surprising with the beginning of his explaining of K, Dev says, "Krishnamurti here seems to suggest", showing his lack of understanding, instead of starting the sentence as "Krishnamurti here clearly shows" and to explain it with some examples to make us understand, what K has meant.
Next Dev says in the same para, "Krishnamurti claims that the human mind also has the capacity for perceiving reality "purely". Be it what K claims or not, what is the Dev's understanding of that "perceiving reality purely"? If at least, in experiencing the reality, if Dev have "perceived reality purely" to some few seconds at least, then he would have explained it using his experience of the reality. Hence, he does not understand K, but only analytically imagines what K may have meant.
Next in the next para he begins with, "Although it's possible to imagine..". Who is interested with what Dev imagines? Reader should be enlightened to of what his understanding of K by examples, of Dve experiencing the same.
Dev says. " For us, the separation between the observer and the observed lies at the heart of our actual experience, unquestioned and unquestionable." So Dev without proving that there is a separation of "observer and the observed", and not elaborating on the "his experience of the 'separation", by at least with one example of his own, he makes a sweeping statement of a conclusion not only for himself, but for, 'For us' of the 'our' actual experience. Does this throw any light on what K says about this separation? Even a grade 5 student would agree that there is a separation between him and the rest, which is the superficial consciousness of a separation everyone experience. Does K talks about this superficial separation, without?
Next Dev says, "In fact, the sense of separation is so real that we find ourselves in a state of constant tension with our environment". K does not speak about a 'sense of separation', but he speaks about the actual 'experience of separation', not with the "our environment" , but within oneself. This Dev has not understood, not only because he failed to experience the same, but he even did not read K closely.
Dev says, "Krishnamurti nonetheless keeps on insisting that the individual and its environment are in fact one and the same thing." Again wrong. What K says is, the 'Division is entirely a matter of seeing that one is divided within, and to end that division making a relationship of oneself with himself, thus ending the conflict within'. This Dev has to understand, just reading K carefully.
Dev must understand that when K speaks about the "environment", it is in relation to being Aware of the same. Being of Aware of the "environment", if that ends with that Awareness, then there does not arise a "separation", within, i.e. Observer and Observed.
So the main theme of the quote of K, i.e the division of observer and observed, was not brought into light, since Dev has a superficial understanding of K.
(There is a possibility of Dev removing the article from the site, hence I have saved it, fully. Next post will be Part-2 of the same).
I don't know if Dev Singh would comment on this here or at his site, since I have posted a link in his site. If he does, and if the comment warrants a reply I would do so.
ReplyDeleteWhy do you expect Dev Singh to be an authority on K ? He is just a moderator and is not without bias and limitation. You were banned from the forum he moderates because another forum member highlighted your earlier criticisms of K. The same forum member has also criticised K before and seems to be confused too, really, about this. However, Dev has also banned him several times but he joins again using a different name. Kinfonet is not the centre of the universe and there are lots of other groups of people who are interested in Jiddu Krishnamurti' s work/teaching you could explore your interest with, Irushad. Try to let go of your argument with Kinfonet, sir. It won't bring you any joy and life is short. Kind Regards
ReplyDeleteYes, I agree entirely with you Ano. But since no one have found any mistakes in his article, if you care to see the comments on his article, but only praising him in those comments or agreeing with him, it surprised me that no one had understood K. The Big Mouths like Paul, Gean Gatti, Jack Pine, etc., who thinks that they are an authority on K, failed to see these 'holes' in Dve's article. Is it because of they also share the same misunderstanding? Or is it out of fear that Dev would react with banning them? Don't you think all those issues were brought to light by this blog? Apart from the main intention of the blog, that is to understand K, and how that understanding unfolds in different people. And yet to find people who are immersed with his teaching in an active way, for years, failed in understanding. -Thanks for the comment. Kind Regards.
ReplyDeleteAno I am not in an argument with Kinfonet. I just took the opportunity of writing about the understanding of Dev Singh, since it is the only article, which tries to explains K, when I looked for an article of an authority.
ReplyDeleteYes, I understand why you have criticisms of other members of Kinfonet whose behaviour is sometimes appalling but Dev Singh doesn't care from once they say that K was right. The forum has a reputation of being a 'hornet's nest', Irushad...
ReplyDeleteYour criticisms of K were harsh...and lots of people have been 'cursed' by psychiatric labels/diagnoses. K was 'protected' from all of that, really.
If you are happy being Buddhist that is up to you, sir...for some people, 'following' K has become a religion instead but most people who write to Kinfonet are not 'conflicted Buddhists' but westerners, really.
I think it is good to notice the errors in the moderator, Dev Singh's own article - no one is above criticism, but the whole forum is too insecure, really, to be able to join you in that. This is probably why Dev has banned you for having 'divergent interests'. Shanti :)
Ano, you got me wrong. The moment I joined, Kinfonet this time, I started a topic called 'Understanding K' in the General discussion forum to evaluate the understanding of everyone, The same is I am continuing here, if you read the first two posts in this blog, and the two posts in that topic in the General Discussion forum. in relation to my understanding of K. That is well before banning me from that forum. But I am still on the 'Dialogue' forum.
ReplyDeleteSo if I remained not banned, I would have continued that Topic analysing (you call it criticising) Dev Singh's article, where Dve Singh could have replied, because it is the only article having any substance.
To continue this blog under another heading, i.e. Factual understanding, I need to find some article by some one who has the factual understanding of K. Then I don't think that I would find any article to discuss my next heading, which is Attainment level of understanding.
But I have a feeling, that you feel being threatened by my exposure of the reality, that no one seems to understand K. Why?
Look at articles and posts by Nick Carter and Lidlo Lady at Kinfonet for other critical appraisals of K...You could also read some Reddit discussions, too. There was more to access/read in Facebook but something went wrong technologically so it all disappeared, unfortunately..
ReplyDeleteI am interested in theory of mind and all there is to do with understanding our human condition and aiding one another's peace.
I am not threatened by your perspective at all Irushad...I am interested but don't want you to waste your time trying to talk to 'deaf ears' at Kinfonet. Personally,I have no fixed view about K and don't 'worship' him like others do.
If no one understood K, I don't understand why people gave him so much attention and applause.
No one has all the answers for everything in life...that is part of its beauty and mystery, isn't it?
Lidlo Lady does not have even a superficial understanding of K. Nick Carter has some superficial understanding of K, but those articles by him even does not bring into light of those superficial understanding as Dev Singh's article. Cater in his articles uses K's words and concepts to explain what he understands of himself or the things he imagines.
ReplyDeleteYou said, "If no one understood K", But in my second post here I said there are a few who have a 'factual understanding' of K. But I find they could not express themselves clearly. But they are the one who applause and also get annoyed, when someone criticize K.
Thanks for the tips. Kind Regards.
Okay, Irushad. All the best :)
ReplyDeletep.s Nick Carter is the same writer as Lidlo Lady.
Yes, Ano. Understandably writing in two different modes.
ReplyDelete